1 7 S1 E7: Ethical Storytelling and Representation in Film: A Conversation with Natalie Bullock Brown
In this episode of Change the Reel, Monique and Piper sit down with documentary filmmaker and ethical storytelling champion Natalie Bullock Brown. From her journey through Howard University’s film program to her work with the Documentary Accountability Working Group (DAWG), Natalie shares powerful insights on authentic representation and the responsibility filmmakers have to their subjects. #RepresentationMatters #DocumentaryFilm #EthicalStorytelling
Why This Matters Now
As media continues to shape our understanding of communities and cultures, who tells the story matters as much as the story itself. Natalie’s work advocates for filmmakers to be “more thoughtful, intentional, and transparent about their filmmaking practices in their relationships with their participants.” This approach isn’t just about fairness—it results in better, more authentic storytelling. #AuthenticVoices #MediaEthics #FilmIndustry
Finding Your Path in Filmmaking
From Writer to Filmmaker
Natalie initially went to Howard University planning to write for television shows like “A Different World,” but discovering Marlon Riggs’ groundbreaking documentary work changed her trajectory entirely. This pivotal moment showed her what documentary film could accomplish—giving voice to underrepresented communities while creating artistically powerful content. #FilmEducation #CareerPath #DocFilm
Building a Career Through Connections
Through a series of connections beginning with jazz musicians at Lincoln Center, Natalie eventually found her way to Ken Burns’ production company. Her story highlights how relationships and networking create opportunities, particularly for women of color in an industry where representation behind the camera remains limited. #WomenInFilm #NetworkingInFilm #CareerDevelopment
Creating Ethical Documentary Practices
The DAWG Framework
As Distinguished Director of the Documentary Accountability Working Group, Natalie helped develop a framework that emphasizes care, consent, collaboration, and ethical storytelling. This approach begins with a critical “reflection” phase where filmmakers examine their proximity to stories and their potential biases. #FilmEthics #DocumentaryPractice #Accountability
Beyond “Not About Us Without Us”
While representation matters, Natalie emphasizes that it’s not simply about who tells the story—it’s about the filmmaker’s commitment to doing internal work to overcome blind spots and biases. This often means bringing in team members with closer proximity to the stories being told. #Collaboration #DiverseTeams #StorytellingEthics
Building Inclusive Production Teams
Intentional Hiring Practices
Natalie shares her experience creating production teams that reflect diversity in gender, ethnicity, and experience. From her first all-women crew to her current collaborative approach with various filmmakers, she demonstrates how intentional hiring creates better working environments and ultimately better films. #InclusiveHiring #ProductionTeams #DiversityInFilm
Creating Comfortable Sets
Both Monique and Piper note how Natalie’s sets stand out for their comfort and organization—a testament to what’s possible when productions prioritize inclusive environments. This approach allows talent and crew to bring their authentic selves to the work without the “heavy armor” often needed in less welcoming spaces. #SetCulture #FilmProduction #InclusiveWorkplaces
Avoiding Harm in Storytelling
Beyond “Poverty Porn” and “Trauma Porn”
A significant portion of the conversation focuses on how filmmakers can avoid perpetuating stereotypes or exploiting communities through their work. Natalie emphasizes that without proper reflection and intentionality, filmmakers risk continuing harmful narratives even with the best intentions. #StorytellingResponsibility #NarrativePower #RepresentationInMedia
Participants as Experts of Their Own Lives
The DAWG framework positions film participants as the experts of their own lives. This collaborative approach involves subjects in the storytelling process, ensuring their voices shape how their stories are told rather than having narratives imposed upon them. #CollaborativeStorytelling #DocumentaryEthics #ParticipantVoices
Looking Forward
Current Projects and Future Impact
Natalie discusses her current documentary project exploring Black women, beauty, and aging through the lens of “Black don’t crack,” as well as her role as executive producer for emerging filmmakers. Her activist approach to filmmaking continues to open doors for diverse voices in the documentary world. #DocumentaryFilmmaking #EmergingFilmmakers #BlackWomenInFilm
Creating Opportunities for Others
Despite concerns about the current political climate’s impact on diversity initiatives, Natalie remains committed to creating opportunities not just for herself but for others coming through the pipeline. She joins Monique and Piper in expressing hope that established BIPOC filmmakers will continue to make space for new voices. #OpportunityCreation #FilmIndustryPipeline #MentorshipInFilm
Bottom Line
Ethical, authentic storytelling requires filmmakers to engage in deep reflection about their biases, intentions, and proximity to stories. By building diverse teams, collaborating with subjects, and committing to responsible practices, filmmakers can create more truthful, impactful work while avoiding harm to the communities they document.
#ChangeTheReel #RepresentationMatters #DocumentaryFilm #EthicalStorytelling #WomenInFilm #BIPOC #AuthenticVoices #MediaEthics #CollaborativeStorytelling #DiversityInMedia #FilmIndustryPipeline #womenhistorymonth
Change the Reel: Where representation starts here. Join us twice monthly as we explore how different voices shape the stories we tell and help you navigate the world of authentic media production.
- NATALIE BULLOCK BROWN - Want to talk to Natalie or work with her? This is how you can connect.
- DAWG - Learn about the Framework for Values, Ethics, and Accountability in Nonfiction Filmmaking
TIME STAMPS
CHANGE THE REEL with Piper and Monique
Executive Producers: Monique Velasquez and Piper Kessler
Producer: Arielle Morten
Director/Editor: Simon Beery
Copyright 2025 Monique & Piper
Transcript
So I ended up going with Diane to a rehearsal, met Wynton Marsalis, met all the major people at Jazz at Lincoln Center and began to form a relationship with them.
Natalie:And ironically, one of them told me, you know, Ken Burns is hiring.
Natalie:I
Natalie:realized there was something missing when I decided to go to film school in the first place, because that's the whole reason why I wanted to write for a different world, because I saw myself on screen.
Monique:Change the Real, a
Monique:podcast with Monique
Monique:Velasquez
Piper:and
Piper:Piper Kessler.
Piper:For over 20 years, we've run a video production business that has achieved what only 3% of women entrepreneurs have done.
Monique:Exceed $250,000 in revenue.
Monique:We want to see business owners that look like us succeed.
Monique:That's why we've started this podcast.
Piper:Change the Reel will drop twice a month.
Monique:We'll release two types of episodes.
Monique:One is with Piper and I kicking it and talking about using video in business.
Piper:And the second features conversations with business owners using media to drive diverse perspectives.
Piper:This is Change the Real. Representation starts here.
Piper:Hey,
Monique:y'all.
Monique:I'm
Monique:Monique Velasquez.
Piper:And I'm Piper Kessler.
Piper:We're talking about representation in media, and I'm excited to get to know and introduce our guests,
Piper:Natalie Bullock-Brown,
Piper:someone
Piper:that really puts action to the idea.
Monique:Natalie is the distinguished
Monique:director of the documentary accountability work group, Dog.
Monique:I
Monique:love that. A collective she helped
Monique:to found in:Monique:that emphasizes care, consent, and collaboration in ethical storytelling. She is also a documentary
Monique:ucer and emerging director, a:Monique:Shorenstein,
Piper:I think. Shorenstein.
Monique:Shorenstein. Thank you.
Monique:film fellow. I love that. In:Monique:Rockwood Institute Just Films Fellow. Natalie is a documentary film producer with 20 plus years
Monique:combined experience in producing, production management, directing, and archival research
Monique:licensing. Experienced assistant professor and served as a department chair. She earned a master
Monique:of fine arts and film production from Howard University, bachelor in English from Northwestern,
Monique:along with her other fellowships.
Piper:And I met Natalie on a couple of productions and was very happy she
Piper:found me and hired me as a sound person and I gotta give out kudos and props and thanks for
Piper:creating a set that was very comfortable extremely organized and I really enjoyed
Piper:being on and with everybody that was in the production.
Piper:There
Monique:we have it. I'm really excited
Monique:to have this conversation so I'm going to check in with you. How are you doing today?
Monique:You feeling comfortable? You feeling secure?
Natalie:Yes, yes, yes. The world is on fire, but I actually feel pretty good today.
Natalie:Okay,
Monique:okay.
Monique:Well,
Monique:we want to talk a little bit about what you're seeing as a trend out there.
Monique:In our 20 years in a production company, we've done documentaries, and what I'm hearing,
Monique:the fellows and the ethical filmmaking, is the idea of not about us without us.
Monique:And I'm thinking that that is probably where you're leaning with what you talk about.
Monique:Is that a fair assessment?
Monique:Talk about that a little bit.
Natalie:I appreciate that assessment.
Natalie:It's a part of what I think is behind the spirit of dog.
Natalie:But what we're really advocating for is filmmakers being more thoughtful, intentional, transparent about their filmmaking practices.
Natalie:in their relationships with their participants, their funders, the audience, and also the idea
Natalie:that when you don't have proximity to a potential or to a particular story, that it's important for
Natalie:you to acknowledge that, to think about who you need on your production team to help you
Natalie:overcome your blind spots, but also even more importantly to do that internal work that's going
Natalie:to help you to keep your biases about people, places, and things from showing up in your film.
Natalie:And we believe at Dog that if you do that work, it creates a much better film.
Natalie:Who
Monique:would you like to give flowers to because their effort is spot on? Maybe you've met them,
Monique:Maybe you've worked with them.
Monique:Maybe you haven't.
Monique:Who would you like to acknowledge is doing a good job in this area?
Monique:Well,
Natalie:the first person that there's two people that come to mind.
Natalie:One is Ava DuVernay, who I've never met, but I teach.
Natalie:And one of the classes that I've had the privilege to teach is African-American cinema.
Natalie:And I have always just been really enamored of Ava because she walks the walk.
Natalie:She doesn't just talk it.
Natalie:She walks it.
Natalie:She has a lot of integrity.
Natalie:She's done so many things to promote
Natalie:equity
Natalie:and inclusion within the entertainment field.
Natalie:But as a Black woman, I've really appreciated the ways that she has surrounded herself with people who can help her tell the stories that she tells. But she also picks stories that I think she is uniquely situated and equipped to tell. And I appreciate that about her as well. And she gives people opportunities to participate in that storytelling.
Natalie:But I also want to shout out Byron Hurt, because he is the director that I've been working with for, wow, it's been about eight years now. I've worked with him on three films. And Piper worked on, I believe...
Natalie:Hazing.
Natalie:Hazing.
Natalie:But also you worked with us on a piece we did for a nonprofit.
Natalie:That was the work that we did specifically in Durham at Haytai, at the Haytai Heritage
Natalie:Foundation.
Natalie:So I worked with Byron Hurt for eight years, almost nine years on about four or five different
Natalie:projects.
Natalie:Byron, I met soon after, about 10 years after I graduated from grad school, from film school.
Natalie:And at that point, I had done some work in the documentary film industry, but I had not begun to make my own films.
Natalie:But what he did was, what Byron did, was to extend what really motivated and inspired me to become a documentary filmmaker in the first place.
Natalie:which was seeing the work of the Black queer filmmaker Marlon Riggs when I was at Howard.
Natalie:Love him. He is the reason I am in documentary film to this day because I went to Howard to become
Natalie:a writer in Hollywood. I wanted to write for A Different World which was the spinoff of the
Natalie:Cosby show. That dates me quite a bit, but that's okay. And I saw Marlon Riggs' Tongues Untied,
Natalie:and I was like, oh my gosh, this is what you can do with documentary filmmaking? Are you kidding me?
Natalie:That
Monique:was my thought exactly when I saw that film. It's like, this is what you can do with a
Monique:documentary?
Monique:I
Monique:mean, I was working in the business, and we were doing, you know, segments and stuff,
Monique:Like, wow, now that was so artistic and so like feeling, right?
Monique:That feeling of understanding what the subject was about was mind blowing.
Monique:And grateful for grad school for exposing me to that as well.
Natalie:Yes.
Natalie:Yes.
Natalie:I won't say that I never would have come across Marlon Riggs, but maybe not.
Natalie:because I mean, I think it's completely apropos that I was exposed to him at Howard University.
Natalie:I don't know that I would have been exposed to him at another program.
Natalie:Entirely grateful to
Natalie:Howard
Natalie:for having professors and electives of all things,
Natalie:because it wasn't within my film program.
Natalie:I happened to take a class where I was exposed.
Natalie:So it's, you know, the universe was at work for sure.
Natalie:Those three, Marlon Riggs first, then Byron, then Ava, they've really
Natalie:been
Natalie:huge inspirations to me in my filmmaking pursuits.
Natalie:And I have to give a special shout out to Madison Davis Lacey, who is a documentary filmmaker of an older generation who I met on while working with Kim Burns on his jazz series.
Natalie:Dave was the only
Natalie:producer
Natalie:that was black.
Natalie:s, early:Natalie:But an amazing mentor, amazing filmmaker, and someone who I have cherished as a friend ever since.
Natalie:I mean, I've known him for now almost 30 years.
Monique:That is enviable.
Monique:You know, good for you.
Monique:So I'm super curious, what made you go to grad school to go for an MFA?
Monique:Because you said you wanted to write, but what
Monique:led
Monique:you down that path?
Natalie:Yeah, it's a great question because, I mean, as you know, I mean, I think we all experience
Natalie:this when you're in college,
Natalie:you
Natalie:come in thinking you're going to do one thing and then
Natalie:you change like two, three, four times before you settle on something.
Natalie:And honestly, Monique, I wanted to go into news and television production.
Natalie:And I applied to all kinds of programs and I could not get in.
Natalie:I did not get into any of them.
Natalie:And I think it's principally because I didn't major in that when I was an undergrad.
Natalie:I majored in English.
Natalie:And so I didn't have any sort of work sample or, you know, project that I could use to demonstrate my ability.
Natalie:Right. You know what I learned.
Natalie:Fortunately, Howard didn't require that and was the only place that I got into.
Natalie:And I got into their MFA program because they didn't have a television production program.
Natalie:But the rest is history.
Natalie:It was the best decision, best, you know, sort of lucky strike that I could have had.
Natalie:It changed the course of my life.
Monique:It's amazing what school will do, right?
Monique:Do you have classmates or peers that you're still in contact with from the program?
Natalie:I do.
Natalie:Every single person
Natalie:that
Natalie:I was in school with, for the most part, there are people that I
Natalie:was that were in my cohort.
Natalie:I came into Howard with a class of five, and I think I'm the only one that stuck with film.
Natalie:Other cohorts that were a little older than I am, by one or two years, they continue to do work
Natalie:in
Natalie:the film
Natalie:world.
Natalie:In fact, some of them have gone on to do amazing things.
Natalie:And one of the alums that I never got to meet, but that I really respect and admire is Bradford Young, who is a cinematographer in Hollywood. And he came to the MFA program at Howard maybe four or five years after I did. But he is, I mean, he's completely taken off. He's worked with Ava. He's worked with Shala Lynch. He's done all kinds of films.
Natalie:Yeah, some
Monique:great, great body of work there. So amazing, right? I'm curious too, women of color,
Monique:I have similar experience in this field.
Monique:What
Monique:was it like starting out and getting your first,
Monique:you know, because you look at the other classmates, where are they? I'm very, very,
Monique:very grateful to be able to work in this industry where I know most of my classmates
Monique:do not. They're either teaching or peripheral and marketing. So
Monique:what's
Monique:it been like for you
Monique:as a woman of color?
Monique:We
Natalie:really need to have this conversation with red wine and popcorn,
Natalie:I think, because it's been a journey.
Natalie:It
Natalie:has been a journey. Wow, what a question. On the one hand,
Natalie:I
Natalie:was very fortunate when I graduated from Howard.
Natalie:I
Natalie:moved to New York immediately upon graduation, like a month later. I really believed that if I could make it there, I could make it anywhere. And I was able to do or eventually find my way into filmmaking because I moved to New York to basically be an assistant manager to two jazz musicians.
Natalie:That was my entry into New York. And because I was working with jazz musicians, one of whom was the singer Diane Reeves, I was able to make contacts at Jazz at Lincoln Center because I happened to start working with her when she was going to be performing at Jazz at Lincoln Center.
Natalie:her manager at the time that I was working with, she was
Natalie:going
Natalie:out of the country. So I ended up
Natalie:going with Diane to a rehearsal, met Wynton Marsalis, met all the major people at Jazz at Lincoln Center
Natalie:and began to form a relationship with them. And ironically, one of them told me, you know,
Natalie:Ken Burns is hiring. Well, no, Ken Burns is doing a documentary series about jazz. You should apply.
Natalie:And when I called, they were like, we don't have any positions, but you can be an intern.
Natalie:And
Natalie:I was like, I got to pay my bills. So, okay, thank you, but no.
Natalie:And it just, it kind of, again, the universe was at play because I ended up
Natalie:applying
Natalie:for a job at Jazz at Lincoln Center that I didn't get, but I went far enough in the interview process that I interviewed with the executive director who asked me point blank,
Natalie:what
Natalie:do you really want to do?
Natalie:Do you want to do jazz education, which was the job?
Natalie:Or do you want to make films about jazz?
Natalie:And I had to be honest.
Natalie:I wanted to make films.
Natalie:So he gave my resume to his across-the-hall neighbor, who happened to be Lynn Novick, who
Natalie:is Ken Burns' longtime producer.
Natalie:And then the same person who told me that I could only get an internship with Florentine
Natalie:Films, Ken's production company, that same person called me.
Natalie:and asked me to apply for a job.
Natalie:I
Monique:find that my path was, it wasn't what I knew, it was who I knew.
Monique:Absolutely.
Monique:It became a lot of those connections.
Monique:Granted, I could do it.
Monique:I could do it all.
Monique:But it became more about who I knew.
Monique:And I agree, this is kind of like a sit back and have a glass of wine and chat about sort of thing.
Monique:And, you know, we are very lucky to have you in this field, in this space.
Monique:Not many women in the space of creating content.
Monique:We know that, you know, people of color
Monique:and
Monique:women are not at the top of the game.
Monique:You know, we can point right now to Shonda Rhimes and, you know, Oprah Winfrey.
Monique:And then there's a gap, you know, what happens after that, who is making content.
Piper:Right.
Piper:And so do you remember the moment in time when you realized that representation was missing?
Piper:And the second part of that is how did that push you to want to make and create change in the industry?
Natalie:I realized there was something missing when I decided to go to film school in the first place,
Natalie:because that's the whole reason why I wanted to write for a different world,
Natalie:because I saw myself on screen. You know, at that time, which was what, the late 80s, early 90s,
Natalie:I went to Howard in:Natalie:long way in terms of representation, but there weren't the diversity of experiences that Black
Natalie:folks and people of color more broadly have represented
Natalie:on
Natalie:the little orbit screen, right?
Natalie:So
Natalie:in
Natalie:grad school, I really
Natalie:kind
Natalie:of experimented with ways to tell stories that would elevate
Natalie:Black voices in particular and our experiences. And that took a variety of forms, but I definitely
Natalie:can say with all certainty that I wanted to go to grad school because I knew that there was a dearth
Natalie:of represented experiences of Black folks and people of color. But Howard really nailed home for me
Natalie:that not only was it important, but that I could do it. It gave me the confidence to know that I
Natalie:had something to say and that I had a natural affinity and inclination towards the work of
Natalie:production. It has served me, I think, really well over the years, especially as I have gained more
Natalie:experience and really begun to have confidence in my ability to tell a story.
Natalie:You
Monique:know, being in the
Monique:classroom
Monique:and being
Monique:able to encourage young folks.
Monique:What
Monique:is your strategy right now to help
Monique:promote
Monique:the
Monique:idea that they have a voice and that they should be in media and use it? How are you
Monique:cultivating this?
Monique:I
Natalie:have been a mentor for a variety of young
Natalie:people
Natalie:of color, mainly young
Natalie:women of color for some years. And I guess I'm not so focused on encouraging them to be in production
Natalie:as I am in really zoning in on their gifts and using those gifts in whatever ways
Natalie:feel
Natalie:most
Natalie:appropriate. And that also reflects their passion. A mentee who has really become like a little sister
Natalie:to me who started off, when I met her, she was in grad school, also a Howard University graduate,
Natalie:I have to say. But she was in grad school at NYU as a dance major. She met Spike Lee and became
Natalie:a film major, then left school altogether because she realized that wasn't what she wanted to do.
Natalie:At every step of the way,
Natalie:I
Natalie:got it. I get it because
Natalie:this
Natalie:is what happens when you're on a journey. You're trying to figure out how the gifts, the things that you're most interested in, that you're most passionate about, can translate into something that you can do as a career. Not as a job, but as a career.
Natalie:Something that
Monique:comes from the heart.
Natalie:Yes, exactly. Exactly. Because I really believe my mom said this to me a long, long time ago. And I really, well, in this present situation or environment, I'm not sure how
Natalie:true
Natalie:this is anymore.
Natalie:But I did believe that if we pursue, if I pursued what I was passionate about, that the money would come because I would do the work
Natalie:out
Natalie:of love for the work, not because I had to do it trying to make a dollar.
Natalie:right and
Natalie:that
Natalie:has pretty much proven to be true for me
Natalie:and
Natalie:I see it working I've seen it work in
Natalie:the lives of of you know other young people and I'm really trying to instill that in my kids I think
Natalie:that when you have a passion for whatever it is that is something that you were put on this earth
Natalie:to do. Like it, it, it translate. There's, it reflects and we have to tap into, okay,
Natalie:why is it that I'm interested in this? Why is it that I can't think of anything else that I don't
Natalie:want to do anything else that this makes me feel alive? Cause there's something there that we have
Natalie:to, you know, understand to be almost like that, that touch of God that, that is going to propel you
Natalie:towards your destiny. I don't mean to be like philosophical, but I really believe that.
Natalie:Something
Monique:that's going to move your spirit that really keeps you in it every day. I'm curious
Monique:how you pick projects. Do they come to you for the most part or do you reach out? And have you
Monique:had to say no to any for any specific reason?
Monique:So
Natalie:I am that kid that wanted to do everything.
Natalie:And I'm that kid that wanted to do everything because I wanted to make everybody happy.
Natalie:So one of the things I have had to learn how to do is to say no, because I'm only one person and I can only really give my best to one or two things.
Natalie:So that's really what I use as a sort of measuring stick.
Natalie:Is this something that speaks to me?
Natalie:Is it something that I feel that I can give
Natalie:100
Natalie:% to or give my best to that I can really
Natalie:help propel forward?
Natalie:And if I don't feel like I can, then I usually say no.
Natalie:I may try and help in some supportive role, something other than what maybe someone wants
Natalie:me to do, maybe what they approach me about doing.
Natalie:So I try and help, but I try not to take on,
Natalie:you
Natalie:know, work as a producer or a director or
Natalie:some
Natalie:other major role unless I can, like, fulfill that in a way that's going to make me feel good about my contribution.
Monique:And so what I know about
Monique:you
Monique:as producer type is from Piper. And
Monique:she
Monique:said that you were very
Monique:intentional on how you build your crews and who you worked with. So talk about having that freedom
Monique:and being able to do that.
Monique:Yeah,
Natalie:I appreciate that, Piper. Thank you. I'm glad you saw that.
Natalie:When I worked with Ken Burns, I didn't really have any sort of agency over who I would hire.
Natalie:there was sort of a crew that was already in place, right? When I had the chance to make decisions
Natalie:about who I was going to include on my crew, particularly the work that I have been doing
Natalie:on my own film for the past eight years, the first crew that I hired was all women.
Natalie:Every single last person, the cinematographers, everyone was a woman or, you know, a queer person
Natalie:queer women in particular. And they came from a variety of backgrounds. The cinematographer
Natalie:was Cuban. The production assistant was Black. The sound person was White. The gaffer was Latina.
Natalie:Oh my gosh, what was the other position? Oh, the AC was from either the Philippines or Indonesia.
Natalie:But the point is we had a rainbow and it was amazing because we worked together so well.
Natalie:And I wish I could show you what we produced together.
Natalie:But it was so beautiful and it totally embodied what I wanted, that work sample, that piece that we were putting together at the time to look like.
Natalie:That does not mean that I don't want to work with men or anyone else.
Natalie:It just simply at that time, it was really important to me to flex that muscle, right?
Natalie:And to be able to dictate
Natalie:who
Natalie:I wanted on my crew, because I knew that that would not always be the
Natalie:case. Working with Byron,
Natalie:he
Natalie:really gave me a lot of flexibility
Natalie:to
Natalie:say
Natalie:who
Natalie:I would and who I would
Natalie:not
Natalie:hire.
Natalie:And sometimes I'm, you know, I made good decisions. He always, you know, sort of
Natalie:co-signed or weighed in on those decisions. And sometimes they weren't good fits and you learn from
Natalie:that and you keep going. But Piper, I'm going to say the crew that we had in Raleigh and Durham
Natalie:with Piper and Ish and Mark Moore, the gaffer, like everybody that worked with us, they were
Natalie:amazing. And it was a good time on set. And I'm glad that, Piper, you at least felt like
Natalie:it was a comfortable and good feeling for you to work with us. That's really important to me.
Piper:I have to say, you know, it's unusual. I mean, it's not totally painful for other crews that I'm
Piper:on. I don't want to say that. But I know when Monique and I get to do our own projects, and we
Piper:to pick the crew, you know, we're very deliberate on who we pick.
Piper:And to be on a set where it was obvious that someone had
Piper:thought
Piper:out and it wasn't,
Piper:it
Piper:just
Piper:seemed more
Piper:thoughtful.
Piper:And then also I got to say, when I got a phone call from folks in LA, you know, and sometimes
Piper:it's like, well, I'm weighing, okay, how much of my time is this going to take and all.
Piper:they said that you recommended me I'm like
Piper:okay
Piper:I'm gonna listen to this and
Piper:I'm so glad that they told me that that that's how they got my name because the
Piper:productions that I have gotten to be on because you passed on my name and I was
Piper:available it would have
Piper:been
Piper:a disappointment to me not to be on those
Piper:sets and
Monique:they were
Monique:and
Piper:and that was I really really appreciate you passing on
Piper:my name and I appreciate the fact that they said it was you the past on my name
Piper:because that automatically goes, oh, this should be interesting.
Piper:Let me listen.
Monique:And so what happens there, we talk about representation in front of the camera, a lot of that, right?
Monique:And we talk about what's happening behind the camera.
Monique:We've had this conversation between us
Monique:how
Monique:we do some code switching in front of people.
Monique:And if there's a shortcut to being comfortable behind the camera,
Monique:like I know if you're the producer or have something to do with the production,
Monique:there's a shortcut. It's like, okay, I don't have to wear as big a shield. If I get called into
Monique:corporate something or another,
Monique:I'm
Monique:going to wear heavy armor
Monique:and,
Monique:you know, stand in my place.
Monique:And so there's something to be said for having different people in the lead positions,
Monique:in the executive positions, in the content creation
Monique:and
Monique:putting these things together. So
Monique:that you're out there and that you are doing it in a thoughtful way. And that's
Monique:a
Monique:big reason why I
Monique:wanted to have this conversation. So flowers to you.
Monique:Thank
Natalie:you. Thank you so much. That means a lot.
Natalie:I mean, really, it truly touches me that you've had good experiences, Piper, from the recommendations
Natalie:that I've made to other productions. That's important because it's not something we can take
Natalie:for granted, as you were saying, Monique. It's not always like that. And I've been very fortunate.
Natalie:I haven't really had to work in an environment where I felt like I had to put on that heavy armor
Natalie:that, you know, knock on wood. Hopefully that will not be my experience, but it's really a pleasure.
Natalie:It makes what we do a pleasure when we can feel comfortable and at ease on set. Not, you know,
Natalie:so casual that we're not doing our job, of course, and not being professional. But you don't want to
Natalie:have to put on that mask and that armor and protect yourself from microaggressions and all
Natalie:kinds of stuff that then makes it not enjoyable. You know, you don't enjoy being on set in those
Natalie:instances. And then you don't want to do what you do. And who wants that?
Monique:And so I'm curious that
Monique:that first production that you talk about, can we find it somewhere? Is that something we can
Monique:we can find and we do some sleuthing you know with the
Natalie:title are you talking about mine yep
Natalie:it's not done
Natalie:oh we're
Monique:still it's still in the process it'll work anything all right well we
Monique:can't wait till uh you can announce it's out in the world thank
Natalie:you i'm looking forward to that too
Monique:and tell us a little about what you are
Monique:not
Monique:just this one because no documentarian ever has one
Monique:project. So tell us, what are you working on currently?
Natalie:So the project that I've been working
Natalie:on for the past eight years is it started out as a first person autobiographical look at the beauty
Natalie:standard, the white beauty standard, and its impact on Black women and girls. And that has
Natalie:iterated and morphed over the years because I've gotten older into a film about Black women,
Natalie:beauty, and aging
Natalie:that
Natalie:I'm going to look at through the lens of Black Don't Crack.
Natalie:And I want to look at both sides of Black Don't Crack, both the scientific phenomenon that the
Natalie:more melanin you have in your skin, the younger your skin looks. But the other side for Black women
Natalie:is that in spite of how we may look, we may look really youthful on the outside, but the stress,
Natalie:the trauma of life in America, of life in a world that is anti-Black and anti-woman,
Natalie:it takes its toll. And so we crack on the inside, even though we don't crack on the outside.
Monique:Well, it sounds like, you know, a super interesting project.
Monique:I want to see
Piper:it.
Monique:I do. I do. I see how much joy you can bring into it, you know, because it's got to have both, right?
Natalie:Absolutely. It does have to have both. It does have to have both. And I have, like all of us,
Natalie:I have, there's so many stories that I want to tell that have not been told. I'd love to look at
Natalie:early history of Black women in labor, meaning like the workforce and unions. I really want to
Natalie:do a film about bell hooks the the feminist author because she like marlin riggs is another one of my
Natalie:i'm gonna call her an ancestor i claim her as an ancestor because in many ways the things that i know
Natalie:about being black and a woman in america i learned from bell hooks so she's like a mother and an auntie
Natalie:to me there are other stories that i you know would love to tell
Natalie:may
Natalie:or may not have the time
Natalie:left
Natalie:on earth to tell, but I get to engage in the type of storytelling that really
Natalie:means a lot to me by executive producing for younger filmmakers. So I'm serving as EP for
Natalie:a filmmaker named Reseda Cox, who's based in Durham. She's working on a film about Kenston,
Natalie:North Carolina, where she's from. And the fact that it is the top producer of basketball,
Natalie:NBA talent in the world per capita.
Natalie:Kinston, North Carolina, right?
Natalie:So I'm so excited about that story because she's going to be uplifting or the community
Natalie:members who nurtured this talent, who never get acknowledged.
Natalie:You know, it's usually the coaches from college and their NBA coaches, but
Natalie:she's
Natalie:going to look
Natalie:at these coaches who nurture this talent on the middle school and high school level and get them
Natalie:to the point where they actually then take off and go to the NBA. So I'm really excited about
Natalie:Reseda's film. And I'm looking forward to hopefully collaborating with Byron again. He has a couple of
Natalie:films that are in the pipeline that are all, they all have some sort of social justice angle. And
Natalie:Because I do, I'm an activist filmmaker.
Natalie:That's really where I feel I am most alive.
Natalie:Yes.
Natalie:When I am doing that type of work, I want to change the world.
Natalie:And the way to do it, I think, is through documentary film.
Monique:I come from a different place.
Monique:I love the small screen.
Monique:And I was obsessed with making TV and that sort of thing.
Monique:So we've done some documentary work, not sustained.
Monique:I find that we can make impact
Monique:with
Monique:media, right?
Piper:Yes, we can.
Monique:And I think you are wisely and rightly
Monique:choosing
Monique:stories and examples of positive, uplifting
Monique:portrayals rather than stereotypes.
Monique:And I want to call it poverty porn, whatever you want to call it.
Natalie:Yes.
Natalie:Yeah.
Natalie:No, that's in trauma porn.
Natalie:Trauma porn.
Natalie:Yes, absolutely.
Natalie:And so,
Monique:you know, we've had our fill, people of color, women in general, have had our fill of this
Monique:sort of, you know, perpetuation of, you know, oh, we're the victim, we don't do anything to
Monique:have agency over our own destinies. Even in Disney, they're turning the corner on this, right?
Monique:Not 100%, but they've got, they've turned the corner.
Natalie:Yes.
Monique:So, I mean, part of this is, you know, I feel like media and what we do and what we put out there is really important.
Monique:You know, what's your philosophy on, you know, how you might coach somebody through what you're seeing?
Monique:For instance, we were on a set and we, this fellow was doing a documentary.
Monique:The white guy, nice guy, but he was not the right person to be telling the story.
Monique:And it was coming out in a way that felt like, you know, trauma-born, poverty-born.
Monique:And he was probing for these questions that the subject was just like,
Monique:I'll make up something if you want me to.
Monique:I could kind of hear it in his voice.
Monique:Like, how do you guide somebody through something like
Monique:avoiding
Monique:those stereotypes,
Monique:avoiding that kind of portrayal?
Natalie:I'm really grateful for this question because it takes me back to the work that I do full-time,
Natalie:which is as director of DOG.
Natalie:And
Natalie:of years ago and released in:Natalie:it
Natalie:basically takes you step by step through the production phases, right?
Natalie:Research and development all the way to release an impact.
Natalie:But we created a sixth phase that we think is the first phase, which is reflection.
Natalie:And it embodies all the things that I talked about at the top of this conversation.
Natalie:thinking about your proximity to a story, thinking about your biases, thinking about your intention
Natalie:in telling a story. What are you trying to do with this story and how will it contribute to
Natalie:information that's already available about the subject matter or the person or the community
Natalie:that you're telling a story about? But also, is there a way that you can challenge
Natalie:dominant narratives about that person, place, or thing that aren't going to co-sign and underscore
Natalie:stereotypes,
Natalie:you
Natalie:know, that exist about that person, place, or thing. Without that work,
Natalie:if you don't do that work before you start working on a film, you're likely to
Natalie:continue
Natalie:stereotypes, to continue sort of mythical narratives about the people in your film,
Natalie:because you haven't really done the work to uncover deeper meaning, both for you and for them.
Natalie:And that's why we really, the dog framework
Natalie:really
Natalie:emphasizes collaboration, because we believe that
Natalie:film participants are the experts of their own lives. So who better to help you tell their story
Natalie:than the film participants? So that's what I would say. We don't believe that people who
Natalie:don't look like the people in their film can't tell their story, right? Although, you know,
Natalie:there are plenty of stories that can be told about white folk, right? And it does seem that in many
Natalie:instances, white filmmakers want to tell stories about
Natalie:other
Natalie:races and cultures because they're
Natalie:curious, right? But if you don't do that work at the onset, you're likely to do harm. And really,
Natalie:the framework that DOG has developed, it's really at its core about reducing harm,
Natalie:mitigating it as much as possible because so much harm is done when filmmakers, and it doesn't
Natalie:really matter what color you are because once you have a camera in your hand, you got power, right?
Natalie:But when we don't do that work, we can unwittingly, unintentionally harm our participants. We can
Natalie:harm our crew, we can harm our production team members
Natalie:in
Natalie:ways that we don't intend. But that
Natalie:doesn't really matter. Good intentions are not the excuse or the answer for harm, right? So I just
Natalie:think that we have to be more intentional and thoughtful about why we want to tell a story and
Natalie:and be honest with ourselves above all else.
Natalie:Because if we can tap into what our intention is,
Natalie:then we can begin to walk
Natalie:a
Natalie:path
Natalie:that is
Natalie:probably
Natalie:going to do a lot more
Natalie:good
Natalie:for our project
Natalie:and for the people that we need around us to tell that story
Natalie:than if we didn't do that work to begin with.
Piper:Amen.
Piper:I always look at it as sometimes when I'm in the midst of a production
Piper:What is your plan?
Piper:If you want to take it down to purely financial
Piper:gain,
Piper:it's like, well, you're not telling
Piper:any story that
Piper:somebody
Piper:else hasn't told, or someone who looks like you has told this story
Piper:about someone that they don't understand.
Piper:I'm in the midst of watching this being filmed, and it's like, you've decided the story that's
Piper:being told, not the person that you're filming gets to decide what their own story is.
Piper:a person who's behind the camera, that's hard to be on a set like that. It is.
Piper:So
Monique:I want to honor
Monique:what time we have here. Do you have something else that you wanted to ask in particular since you,
Monique:uh, now you got her on the spot. I know,
Piper:I'm like, I'm like looking at my notes. I mean,
Piper:you automatically said a lot of the things that I would want to hear from you. All I have left is,
Piper:again, lots of thanks.
Monique:Yeah, lots of thanks. I'm going to do this, and this is going to take a minute,
Monique:But
Monique:I
Monique:still want to hear what kind of trends do you see out there
Monique:for
Monique:women behind the camera in this industry, in the documentary field?
Monique:I
Natalie:mean, I think that there are all kinds of opportunities.
Natalie:Honestly, it's what happens when you have those opportunities.
Natalie:So what I mean is if you are good, if you have done the work, you have like a reel that demonstrates what you're able to do, you're going to get hired by or you're likely to get hired by someone.
Natalie:There is still a lot of it's who you know that exists. And I am very concerned that in this present political environment where DEI is being dismantled or, you know, demonized, that that's going to have a negative impact on the extent to which women, people of color, queer people, trans people, anyone who's not a white male is able to get the type of substantive opportunity.
Natalie:that lead to you being able to like make a career out of the work. But the opportunities do exist. And there are
Natalie:many
Natalie:women that I can think of, you know, from young emerging filmmakers to seasoned ones,
Natalie:who
Natalie:have made really groundbreaking, award-winning work, either as directors, producers.
Natalie:I'm thinking about the director Yoruba Rechen, who, you know, on the heels of completing
Natalie:Wilmington.
Natalie:What's the name of the film?
Natalie:of American coup, Wilmington:Natalie:Lord have mercy.
Natalie:On the heels of doing that, like Yoruba is blazing.
Natalie:Like she's doing the damn thing.
Natalie:Right.
Natalie:And Yoruba is a Black queer woman. And she is having all kinds of opportunities to tell stories that a lot of us, you know, dream about. Don Porter is another one. She just did Luther Vandross's, you know, biography, basically, Never Too Much.
Natalie:I know, it's a wonderful film. And Dawn, you know, she came out the gate, like, going for it. And they both have done really well. And I know young emerging filmmakers like Reseda, there are young people coming out of Youth FX, which is an Albany-based documentary filmmaking sort of incubator that nurtures young BIPOC talent.
Natalie:And they have amazing filmmakers coming out of that environment.
Natalie:And a lot of them are young women of color.
Natalie:So we're coming, like we're in the pipeline.
Natalie:I'm hoping that that pipeline's not going to be shut down, right?
Natalie:In this moment when so much is being, you know, shut down in terms of opportunities for people who look like us.
Natalie:I'm
Monique:going to go with the up note here and say that we intentionally hire and we own our own business.
Monique:We make our own space.
Monique:A lot of people of color, that's what they do.
Monique:We're very grateful that you're out there doing intentional things and opening doors and being a model and having shoulders to stand on.
Monique:So we are grateful to you.
Monique:And to be positive about it, I think that there are enough people already through the pipeline, in the middle of the pipeline, that will continue to allow those behind us to advance.
Natalie:Yeah, I agree. I plan to keep fighting
Natalie:to
Natalie:make sure that that pipeline continues.
Natalie:And in any way that I can, if I can create an opportunity, not only for myself, but for others, I'm going to do it.
Natalie:And so I'm glad to know that you all are out there as well.
Monique:So if somebody has questions, they see this podcast and they're like, hey, how do I get in touch with Natalie?
Natalie:If you go to my website, which is NatalieBullockBrown.com, you can send me an email through the website and I will respond.
Natalie:Unless you're trying to, you know, market something that's yours.
Natalie:Right.
Natalie:But if you want to work with me, you want advice, you want to get into documentary, like I'm willing to talk to just about
Natalie:anybody,
Natalie:hit me up on my website and I will respond.
Piper:Well, we appreciate your time today.
Piper:Yeah, I really appreciate you taking today to talk to us.
Natalie:Absolutely. Thank you for the invitation. This has been so much fun.
Natalie:And I hope we get to have that real conversation with wine and popcorn at some point soon.
Monique:Next time you're in town.
Natalie:Absolutely. Thank
Piper:you so much, y'all.