So I ended up going with Diane to a rehearsal, met Wynton Marsalis, met all the major people at Jazz at Lincoln Center and began to form a relationship with them.

And ironically, one of them told me, you know, Ken Burns is hiring.

I

realized there was something missing when I decided to go to film school in the first place, because that's the whole reason why I wanted to write for a different world, because I saw myself on screen.

Change the Real, a

podcast with Monique

Velasquez

and

Piper Kessler.

For over 20 years, we've run a video production business that has achieved what only 3% of women entrepreneurs have done.

Exceed $250,000 in revenue.

We want to see business owners that look like us succeed.

That's why we've started this podcast.

Change the Reel will drop twice a month.

We'll release two types of episodes.

One is with Piper and I kicking it and talking about using video in business.

And the second features conversations with business owners using media to drive diverse perspectives.

This is Change the Real. Representation starts here.

Hey,

y'all.

I'm

Monique Velasquez.

And I'm Piper Kessler.

We're talking about representation in media, and I'm excited to get to know and introduce our guests,

Natalie Bullock-Brown,

someone

that really puts action to the idea.

Natalie is the distinguished

director of the documentary accountability work group, Dog.

I

love that. A collective she helped

that emphasizes care, consent, and collaboration in ethical storytelling. She is also a documentary

Shorenstein,

I think. Shorenstein.

Shorenstein. Thank you.

Rockwood Institute Just Films Fellow. Natalie is a documentary film producer with 20 plus years

combined experience in producing, production management, directing, and archival research

licensing. Experienced assistant professor and served as a department chair. She earned a master

of fine arts and film production from Howard University, bachelor in English from Northwestern,

along with her other fellowships.

And I met Natalie on a couple of productions and was very happy she

found me and hired me as a sound person and I gotta give out kudos and props and thanks for

creating a set that was very comfortable extremely organized and I really enjoyed

being on and with everybody that was in the production.

There

we have it. I'm really excited

to have this conversation so I'm going to check in with you. How are you doing today?

You feeling comfortable? You feeling secure?

Yes, yes, yes. The world is on fire, but I actually feel pretty good today.

Okay,

okay.

Well,

we want to talk a little bit about what you're seeing as a trend out there.

In our 20 years in a production company, we've done documentaries, and what I'm hearing,

the fellows and the ethical filmmaking, is the idea of not about us without us.

And I'm thinking that that is probably where you're leaning with what you talk about.

Is that a fair assessment?

Talk about that a little bit.

I appreciate that assessment.

It's a part of what I think is behind the spirit of dog.

But what we're really advocating for is filmmakers being more thoughtful, intentional, transparent about their filmmaking practices.

in their relationships with their participants, their funders, the audience, and also the idea

that when you don't have proximity to a potential or to a particular story, that it's important for

you to acknowledge that, to think about who you need on your production team to help you

overcome your blind spots, but also even more importantly to do that internal work that's going

to help you to keep your biases about people, places, and things from showing up in your film.

And we believe at Dog that if you do that work, it creates a much better film.

Who

would you like to give flowers to because their effort is spot on? Maybe you've met them,

Maybe you've worked with them.

Maybe you haven't.

Who would you like to acknowledge is doing a good job in this area?

Well,

the first person that there's two people that come to mind.

One is Ava DuVernay, who I've never met, but I teach.

And one of the classes that I've had the privilege to teach is African-American cinema.

And I have always just been really enamored of Ava because she walks the walk.

She doesn't just talk it.

She walks it.

She has a lot of integrity.

She's done so many things to promote

equity

and inclusion within the entertainment field.

But as a Black woman, I've really appreciated the ways that she has surrounded herself with people who can help her tell the stories that she tells. But she also picks stories that I think she is uniquely situated and equipped to tell. And I appreciate that about her as well. And she gives people opportunities to participate in that storytelling.

But I also want to shout out Byron Hurt, because he is the director that I've been working with for, wow, it's been about eight years now. I've worked with him on three films. And Piper worked on, I believe...

Hazing.

Hazing.

But also you worked with us on a piece we did for a nonprofit.

That was the work that we did specifically in Durham at Haytai, at the Haytai Heritage

Foundation.

So I worked with Byron Hurt for eight years, almost nine years on about four or five different

projects.

Byron, I met soon after, about 10 years after I graduated from grad school, from film school.

And at that point, I had done some work in the documentary film industry, but I had not begun to make my own films.

But what he did was, what Byron did, was to extend what really motivated and inspired me to become a documentary filmmaker in the first place.

which was seeing the work of the Black queer filmmaker Marlon Riggs when I was at Howard.

Love him. He is the reason I am in documentary film to this day because I went to Howard to become

a writer in Hollywood. I wanted to write for A Different World which was the spinoff of the

Cosby show. That dates me quite a bit, but that's okay. And I saw Marlon Riggs' Tongues Untied,

and I was like, oh my gosh, this is what you can do with documentary filmmaking? Are you kidding me?

That

was my thought exactly when I saw that film. It's like, this is what you can do with a

documentary?

I

mean, I was working in the business, and we were doing, you know, segments and stuff,

Like, wow, now that was so artistic and so like feeling, right?

That feeling of understanding what the subject was about was mind blowing.

And grateful for grad school for exposing me to that as well.

Yes.

Yes.

I won't say that I never would have come across Marlon Riggs, but maybe not.

because I mean, I think it's completely apropos that I was exposed to him at Howard University.

I don't know that I would have been exposed to him at another program.

Entirely grateful to

Howard

for having professors and electives of all things,

because it wasn't within my film program.

I happened to take a class where I was exposed.

So it's, you know, the universe was at work for sure.

Those three, Marlon Riggs first, then Byron, then Ava, they've really

been

huge inspirations to me in my filmmaking pursuits.

And I have to give a special shout out to Madison Davis Lacey, who is a documentary filmmaker of an older generation who I met on while working with Kim Burns on his jazz series.

Dave was the only

producer

that was black.

But an amazing mentor, amazing filmmaker, and someone who I have cherished as a friend ever since.

I mean, I've known him for now almost 30 years.

That is enviable.

You know, good for you.

So I'm super curious, what made you go to grad school to go for an MFA?

Because you said you wanted to write, but what

led

you down that path?

Yeah, it's a great question because, I mean, as you know, I mean, I think we all experience

this when you're in college,

you

come in thinking you're going to do one thing and then

you change like two, three, four times before you settle on something.

And honestly, Monique, I wanted to go into news and television production.

And I applied to all kinds of programs and I could not get in.

I did not get into any of them.

And I think it's principally because I didn't major in that when I was an undergrad.

I majored in English.

And so I didn't have any sort of work sample or, you know, project that I could use to demonstrate my ability.

Right. You know what I learned.

Fortunately, Howard didn't require that and was the only place that I got into.

And I got into their MFA program because they didn't have a television production program.

But the rest is history.

It was the best decision, best, you know, sort of lucky strike that I could have had.

It changed the course of my life.

It's amazing what school will do, right?

Do you have classmates or peers that you're still in contact with from the program?

I do.

Every single person

that

I was in school with, for the most part, there are people that I

was that were in my cohort.

I came into Howard with a class of five, and I think I'm the only one that stuck with film.

Other cohorts that were a little older than I am, by one or two years, they continue to do work

in

the film

world.

In fact, some of them have gone on to do amazing things.

And one of the alums that I never got to meet, but that I really respect and admire is Bradford Young, who is a cinematographer in Hollywood. And he came to the MFA program at Howard maybe four or five years after I did. But he is, I mean, he's completely taken off. He's worked with Ava. He's worked with Shala Lynch. He's done all kinds of films.

Yeah, some

great, great body of work there. So amazing, right? I'm curious too, women of color,

I have similar experience in this field.

What

was it like starting out and getting your first,

you know, because you look at the other classmates, where are they? I'm very, very,

very grateful to be able to work in this industry where I know most of my classmates

do not. They're either teaching or peripheral and marketing. So

what's

it been like for you

as a woman of color?

We

really need to have this conversation with red wine and popcorn,

I think, because it's been a journey.

It

has been a journey. Wow, what a question. On the one hand,

I

was very fortunate when I graduated from Howard.

I

moved to New York immediately upon graduation, like a month later. I really believed that if I could make it there, I could make it anywhere. And I was able to do or eventually find my way into filmmaking because I moved to New York to basically be an assistant manager to two jazz musicians.

That was my entry into New York. And because I was working with jazz musicians, one of whom was the singer Diane Reeves, I was able to make contacts at Jazz at Lincoln Center because I happened to start working with her when she was going to be performing at Jazz at Lincoln Center.

her manager at the time that I was working with, she was

going

out of the country. So I ended up

going with Diane to a rehearsal, met Wynton Marsalis, met all the major people at Jazz at Lincoln Center

and began to form a relationship with them. And ironically, one of them told me, you know,

Ken Burns is hiring. Well, no, Ken Burns is doing a documentary series about jazz. You should apply.

And when I called, they were like, we don't have any positions, but you can be an intern.

And

I was like, I got to pay my bills. So, okay, thank you, but no.

And it just, it kind of, again, the universe was at play because I ended up

applying

for a job at Jazz at Lincoln Center that I didn't get, but I went far enough in the interview process that I interviewed with the executive director who asked me point blank,

what

do you really want to do?

Do you want to do jazz education, which was the job?

Or do you want to make films about jazz?

And I had to be honest.

I wanted to make films.

So he gave my resume to his across-the-hall neighbor, who happened to be Lynn Novick, who

is Ken Burns' longtime producer.

And then the same person who told me that I could only get an internship with Florentine

Films, Ken's production company, that same person called me.

and asked me to apply for a job.

I

find that my path was, it wasn't what I knew, it was who I knew.

Absolutely.

It became a lot of those connections.

Granted, I could do it.

I could do it all.

But it became more about who I knew.

And I agree, this is kind of like a sit back and have a glass of wine and chat about sort of thing.

And, you know, we are very lucky to have you in this field, in this space.

Not many women in the space of creating content.

We know that, you know, people of color

and

women are not at the top of the game.

You know, we can point right now to Shonda Rhimes and, you know, Oprah Winfrey.

And then there's a gap, you know, what happens after that, who is making content.

Right.

And so do you remember the moment in time when you realized that representation was missing?

And the second part of that is how did that push you to want to make and create change in the industry?

I realized there was something missing when I decided to go to film school in the first place,

because that's the whole reason why I wanted to write for a different world,

because I saw myself on screen. You know, at that time, which was what, the late 80s, early 90s,

long way in terms of representation, but there weren't the diversity of experiences that Black

folks and people of color more broadly have represented

on

the little orbit screen, right?

So

in

grad school, I really

kind

of experimented with ways to tell stories that would elevate

Black voices in particular and our experiences. And that took a variety of forms, but I definitely

can say with all certainty that I wanted to go to grad school because I knew that there was a dearth

of represented experiences of Black folks and people of color. But Howard really nailed home for me

that not only was it important, but that I could do it. It gave me the confidence to know that I

had something to say and that I had a natural affinity and inclination towards the work of

production. It has served me, I think, really well over the years, especially as I have gained more

experience and really begun to have confidence in my ability to tell a story.

You

know, being in the

classroom

and being

able to encourage young folks.

What

is your strategy right now to help

promote

the

idea that they have a voice and that they should be in media and use it? How are you

cultivating this?

I

have been a mentor for a variety of young

people

of color, mainly young

women of color for some years. And I guess I'm not so focused on encouraging them to be in production

as I am in really zoning in on their gifts and using those gifts in whatever ways

feel

most

appropriate. And that also reflects their passion. A mentee who has really become like a little sister

to me who started off, when I met her, she was in grad school, also a Howard University graduate,

I have to say. But she was in grad school at NYU as a dance major. She met Spike Lee and became

a film major, then left school altogether because she realized that wasn't what she wanted to do.

At every step of the way,

I

got it. I get it because

this

is what happens when you're on a journey. You're trying to figure out how the gifts, the things that you're most interested in, that you're most passionate about, can translate into something that you can do as a career. Not as a job, but as a career.

Something that

comes from the heart.

Yes, exactly. Exactly. Because I really believe my mom said this to me a long, long time ago. And I really, well, in this present situation or environment, I'm not sure how

true

this is anymore.

But I did believe that if we pursue, if I pursued what I was passionate about, that the money would come because I would do the work

out

of love for the work, not because I had to do it trying to make a dollar.

right and

that

has pretty much proven to be true for me

and

I see it working I've seen it work in

the lives of of you know other young people and I'm really trying to instill that in my kids I think

that when you have a passion for whatever it is that is something that you were put on this earth

to do. Like it, it, it translate. There's, it reflects and we have to tap into, okay,

why is it that I'm interested in this? Why is it that I can't think of anything else that I don't

want to do anything else that this makes me feel alive? Cause there's something there that we have

to, you know, understand to be almost like that, that touch of God that, that is going to propel you

towards your destiny. I don't mean to be like philosophical, but I really believe that.

Something

that's going to move your spirit that really keeps you in it every day. I'm curious

how you pick projects. Do they come to you for the most part or do you reach out? And have you

had to say no to any for any specific reason?

So

I am that kid that wanted to do everything.

And I'm that kid that wanted to do everything because I wanted to make everybody happy.

So one of the things I have had to learn how to do is to say no, because I'm only one person and I can only really give my best to one or two things.

So that's really what I use as a sort of measuring stick.

Is this something that speaks to me?

Is it something that I feel that I can give

100

% to or give my best to that I can really

help propel forward?

And if I don't feel like I can, then I usually say no.

I may try and help in some supportive role, something other than what maybe someone wants

me to do, maybe what they approach me about doing.

So I try and help, but I try not to take on,

you

know, work as a producer or a director or

some

other major role unless I can, like, fulfill that in a way that's going to make me feel good about my contribution.

And so what I know about

you

as producer type is from Piper. And

she

said that you were very

intentional on how you build your crews and who you worked with. So talk about having that freedom

and being able to do that.

Yeah,

I appreciate that, Piper. Thank you. I'm glad you saw that.

When I worked with Ken Burns, I didn't really have any sort of agency over who I would hire.

there was sort of a crew that was already in place, right? When I had the chance to make decisions

about who I was going to include on my crew, particularly the work that I have been doing

on my own film for the past eight years, the first crew that I hired was all women.

Every single last person, the cinematographers, everyone was a woman or, you know, a queer person

queer women in particular. And they came from a variety of backgrounds. The cinematographer

was Cuban. The production assistant was Black. The sound person was White. The gaffer was Latina.

Oh my gosh, what was the other position? Oh, the AC was from either the Philippines or Indonesia.

But the point is we had a rainbow and it was amazing because we worked together so well.

And I wish I could show you what we produced together.

But it was so beautiful and it totally embodied what I wanted, that work sample, that piece that we were putting together at the time to look like.

That does not mean that I don't want to work with men or anyone else.

It just simply at that time, it was really important to me to flex that muscle, right?

And to be able to dictate

who

I wanted on my crew, because I knew that that would not always be the

case. Working with Byron,

he

really gave me a lot of flexibility

to

say

who

I would and who I would

not

hire.

And sometimes I'm, you know, I made good decisions. He always, you know, sort of

co-signed or weighed in on those decisions. And sometimes they weren't good fits and you learn from

that and you keep going. But Piper, I'm going to say the crew that we had in Raleigh and Durham

with Piper and Ish and Mark Moore, the gaffer, like everybody that worked with us, they were

amazing. And it was a good time on set. And I'm glad that, Piper, you at least felt like

it was a comfortable and good feeling for you to work with us. That's really important to me.

I have to say, you know, it's unusual. I mean, it's not totally painful for other crews that I'm

on. I don't want to say that. But I know when Monique and I get to do our own projects, and we

to pick the crew, you know, we're very deliberate on who we pick.

And to be on a set where it was obvious that someone had

thought

out and it wasn't,

it

just

seemed more

thoughtful.

And then also I got to say, when I got a phone call from folks in LA, you know, and sometimes

it's like, well, I'm weighing, okay, how much of my time is this going to take and all.

they said that you recommended me I'm like

okay

I'm gonna listen to this and

I'm so glad that they told me that that that's how they got my name because the

productions that I have gotten to be on because you passed on my name and I was

available it would have

been

a disappointment to me not to be on those

sets and

they were

and

and that was I really really appreciate you passing on

my name and I appreciate the fact that they said it was you the past on my name

because that automatically goes, oh, this should be interesting.

Let me listen.

And so what happens there, we talk about representation in front of the camera, a lot of that, right?

And we talk about what's happening behind the camera.

We've had this conversation between us

how

we do some code switching in front of people.

And if there's a shortcut to being comfortable behind the camera,

like I know if you're the producer or have something to do with the production,

there's a shortcut. It's like, okay, I don't have to wear as big a shield. If I get called into

corporate something or another,

I'm

going to wear heavy armor

and,

you know, stand in my place.

And so there's something to be said for having different people in the lead positions,

in the executive positions, in the content creation

and

putting these things together. So

that you're out there and that you are doing it in a thoughtful way. And that's

a

big reason why I

wanted to have this conversation. So flowers to you.

Thank

you. Thank you so much. That means a lot.

I mean, really, it truly touches me that you've had good experiences, Piper, from the recommendations

that I've made to other productions. That's important because it's not something we can take

for granted, as you were saying, Monique. It's not always like that. And I've been very fortunate.

I haven't really had to work in an environment where I felt like I had to put on that heavy armor

that, you know, knock on wood. Hopefully that will not be my experience, but it's really a pleasure.

It makes what we do a pleasure when we can feel comfortable and at ease on set. Not, you know,

so casual that we're not doing our job, of course, and not being professional. But you don't want to

have to put on that mask and that armor and protect yourself from microaggressions and all

kinds of stuff that then makes it not enjoyable. You know, you don't enjoy being on set in those

instances. And then you don't want to do what you do. And who wants that?

And so I'm curious that

that first production that you talk about, can we find it somewhere? Is that something we can

we can find and we do some sleuthing you know with the

title are you talking about mine yep

it's not done

oh we're

still it's still in the process it'll work anything all right well we

can't wait till uh you can announce it's out in the world thank

you i'm looking forward to that too

and tell us a little about what you are

not

just this one because no documentarian ever has one

project. So tell us, what are you working on currently?

So the project that I've been working

on for the past eight years is it started out as a first person autobiographical look at the beauty

standard, the white beauty standard, and its impact on Black women and girls. And that has

iterated and morphed over the years because I've gotten older into a film about Black women,

beauty, and aging

that

I'm going to look at through the lens of Black Don't Crack.

And I want to look at both sides of Black Don't Crack, both the scientific phenomenon that the

more melanin you have in your skin, the younger your skin looks. But the other side for Black women

is that in spite of how we may look, we may look really youthful on the outside, but the stress,

the trauma of life in America, of life in a world that is anti-Black and anti-woman,

it takes its toll. And so we crack on the inside, even though we don't crack on the outside.

Well, it sounds like, you know, a super interesting project.

I want to see

it.

I do. I do. I see how much joy you can bring into it, you know, because it's got to have both, right?

Absolutely. It does have to have both. It does have to have both. And I have, like all of us,

I have, there's so many stories that I want to tell that have not been told. I'd love to look at

early history of Black women in labor, meaning like the workforce and unions. I really want to

do a film about bell hooks the the feminist author because she like marlin riggs is another one of my

i'm gonna call her an ancestor i claim her as an ancestor because in many ways the things that i know

about being black and a woman in america i learned from bell hooks so she's like a mother and an auntie

to me there are other stories that i you know would love to tell

may

or may not have the time

left

on earth to tell, but I get to engage in the type of storytelling that really

means a lot to me by executive producing for younger filmmakers. So I'm serving as EP for

a filmmaker named Reseda Cox, who's based in Durham. She's working on a film about Kenston,

North Carolina, where she's from. And the fact that it is the top producer of basketball,

NBA talent in the world per capita.

Kinston, North Carolina, right?

So I'm so excited about that story because she's going to be uplifting or the community

members who nurtured this talent, who never get acknowledged.

You know, it's usually the coaches from college and their NBA coaches, but

she's

going to look

at these coaches who nurture this talent on the middle school and high school level and get them

to the point where they actually then take off and go to the NBA. So I'm really excited about

Reseda's film. And I'm looking forward to hopefully collaborating with Byron again. He has a couple of

films that are in the pipeline that are all, they all have some sort of social justice angle. And

Because I do, I'm an activist filmmaker.

That's really where I feel I am most alive.

Yes.

When I am doing that type of work, I want to change the world.

And the way to do it, I think, is through documentary film.

I come from a different place.

I love the small screen.

And I was obsessed with making TV and that sort of thing.

So we've done some documentary work, not sustained.

I find that we can make impact

with

media, right?

Yes, we can.

And I think you are wisely and rightly

choosing

stories and examples of positive, uplifting

portrayals rather than stereotypes.

And I want to call it poverty porn, whatever you want to call it.

Yes.

Yeah.

No, that's in trauma porn.

Trauma porn.

Yes, absolutely.

And so,

you know, we've had our fill, people of color, women in general, have had our fill of this

sort of, you know, perpetuation of, you know, oh, we're the victim, we don't do anything to

have agency over our own destinies. Even in Disney, they're turning the corner on this, right?

Not 100%, but they've got, they've turned the corner.

Yes.

So, I mean, part of this is, you know, I feel like media and what we do and what we put out there is really important.

You know, what's your philosophy on, you know, how you might coach somebody through what you're seeing?

For instance, we were on a set and we, this fellow was doing a documentary.

The white guy, nice guy, but he was not the right person to be telling the story.

And it was coming out in a way that felt like, you know, trauma-born, poverty-born.

And he was probing for these questions that the subject was just like,

I'll make up something if you want me to.

I could kind of hear it in his voice.

Like, how do you guide somebody through something like

avoiding

those stereotypes,

avoiding that kind of portrayal?

I'm really grateful for this question because it takes me back to the work that I do full-time,

which is as director of DOG.

And

it

basically takes you step by step through the production phases, right?

Research and development all the way to release an impact.

But we created a sixth phase that we think is the first phase, which is reflection.

And it embodies all the things that I talked about at the top of this conversation.

thinking about your proximity to a story, thinking about your biases, thinking about your intention

in telling a story. What are you trying to do with this story and how will it contribute to

information that's already available about the subject matter or the person or the community

that you're telling a story about? But also, is there a way that you can challenge

dominant narratives about that person, place, or thing that aren't going to co-sign and underscore

stereotypes,

you

know, that exist about that person, place, or thing. Without that work,

if you don't do that work before you start working on a film, you're likely to

continue

stereotypes, to continue sort of mythical narratives about the people in your film,

because you haven't really done the work to uncover deeper meaning, both for you and for them.

And that's why we really, the dog framework

really

emphasizes collaboration, because we believe that

film participants are the experts of their own lives. So who better to help you tell their story

than the film participants? So that's what I would say. We don't believe that people who

don't look like the people in their film can't tell their story, right? Although, you know,

there are plenty of stories that can be told about white folk, right? And it does seem that in many

instances, white filmmakers want to tell stories about

other

races and cultures because they're

curious, right? But if you don't do that work at the onset, you're likely to do harm. And really,

the framework that DOG has developed, it's really at its core about reducing harm,

mitigating it as much as possible because so much harm is done when filmmakers, and it doesn't

really matter what color you are because once you have a camera in your hand, you got power, right?

But when we don't do that work, we can unwittingly, unintentionally harm our participants. We can

harm our crew, we can harm our production team members

in

ways that we don't intend. But that

doesn't really matter. Good intentions are not the excuse or the answer for harm, right? So I just

think that we have to be more intentional and thoughtful about why we want to tell a story and

and be honest with ourselves above all else.

Because if we can tap into what our intention is,

then we can begin to walk

a

path

that is

probably

going to do a lot more

good

for our project

and for the people that we need around us to tell that story

than if we didn't do that work to begin with.

Amen.

I always look at it as sometimes when I'm in the midst of a production

What is your plan?

If you want to take it down to purely financial

gain,

it's like, well, you're not telling

any story that

somebody

else hasn't told, or someone who looks like you has told this story

about someone that they don't understand.

I'm in the midst of watching this being filmed, and it's like, you've decided the story that's

being told, not the person that you're filming gets to decide what their own story is.

a person who's behind the camera, that's hard to be on a set like that. It is.

So

I want to honor

what time we have here. Do you have something else that you wanted to ask in particular since you,

uh, now you got her on the spot. I know,

I'm like, I'm like looking at my notes. I mean,

you automatically said a lot of the things that I would want to hear from you. All I have left is,

again, lots of thanks.

Yeah, lots of thanks. I'm going to do this, and this is going to take a minute,

But

I

still want to hear what kind of trends do you see out there

for

women behind the camera in this industry, in the documentary field?

I

mean, I think that there are all kinds of opportunities.

Honestly, it's what happens when you have those opportunities.

So what I mean is if you are good, if you have done the work, you have like a reel that demonstrates what you're able to do, you're going to get hired by or you're likely to get hired by someone.

There is still a lot of it's who you know that exists. And I am very concerned that in this present political environment where DEI is being dismantled or, you know, demonized, that that's going to have a negative impact on the extent to which women, people of color, queer people, trans people, anyone who's not a white male is able to get the type of substantive opportunity.

that lead to you being able to like make a career out of the work. But the opportunities do exist. And there are

many

women that I can think of, you know, from young emerging filmmakers to seasoned ones,

who

have made really groundbreaking, award-winning work, either as directors, producers.

I'm thinking about the director Yoruba Rechen, who, you know, on the heels of completing

Wilmington.

What's the name of the film?

Lord have mercy.

On the heels of doing that, like Yoruba is blazing.

Like she's doing the damn thing.

Right.

And Yoruba is a Black queer woman. And she is having all kinds of opportunities to tell stories that a lot of us, you know, dream about. Don Porter is another one. She just did Luther Vandross's, you know, biography, basically, Never Too Much.

I know, it's a wonderful film. And Dawn, you know, she came out the gate, like, going for it. And they both have done really well. And I know young emerging filmmakers like Reseda, there are young people coming out of Youth FX, which is an Albany-based documentary filmmaking sort of incubator that nurtures young BIPOC talent.

And they have amazing filmmakers coming out of that environment.

And a lot of them are young women of color.

So we're coming, like we're in the pipeline.

I'm hoping that that pipeline's not going to be shut down, right?

In this moment when so much is being, you know, shut down in terms of opportunities for people who look like us.

I'm

going to go with the up note here and say that we intentionally hire and we own our own business.

We make our own space.

A lot of people of color, that's what they do.

We're very grateful that you're out there doing intentional things and opening doors and being a model and having shoulders to stand on.

So we are grateful to you.

And to be positive about it, I think that there are enough people already through the pipeline, in the middle of the pipeline, that will continue to allow those behind us to advance.

Yeah, I agree. I plan to keep fighting

to

make sure that that pipeline continues.

And in any way that I can, if I can create an opportunity, not only for myself, but for others, I'm going to do it.

And so I'm glad to know that you all are out there as well.

So if somebody has questions, they see this podcast and they're like, hey, how do I get in touch with Natalie?

If you go to my website, which is NatalieBullockBrown.com, you can send me an email through the website and I will respond.

Unless you're trying to, you know, market something that's yours.

Right.

But if you want to work with me, you want advice, you want to get into documentary, like I'm willing to talk to just about

anybody,

hit me up on my website and I will respond.

Well, we appreciate your time today.

Yeah, I really appreciate you taking today to talk to us.

Absolutely. Thank you for the invitation. This has been so much fun.

And I hope we get to have that real conversation with wine and popcorn at some point soon.

Next time you're in town.

Absolutely. Thank

you so much, y'all.